Q:  defend english, or embrace its evolution?

Replies

andrewjthomas said, (44 days ago)

I'm gonna be a politician and say "bit of both"

I think it's good to strive for standards, but you also have to be willing to allow a language to grow and change.

bizzy said, (44 days ago)

Consistency is good, but adaptability is better, imo.

Carlo said, (44 days ago)

Screw that. Oxford comma 4-EVA!

le_sacre said, (44 days ago)

it rankles me when i read "she should of done it this way."  yet that's increasingly just a reflection of actual usage, and it doesn't obscure the meaning.  in another fun case, "octupi" is a bastardized neologism, because "octopus" has greek roots, not latin--thus its plural should be "octopuses" or "octopodes."

it seems like traditionally, meaningless distinctions between proper and improper usage have been useful primarily as a marker signifying the speaker's command of language and literature, which may be taken as one quick index of knowledge, intelligence, and wisdom (in the same way that functional vocabulary is roughly correlated with IQ); yet as usage evolves, this distinction seems to be becoming less important (i.e., people who are indeed worth listening to are more and more likely to be committing "misuse").

but i still have that reflex reaction, for example in reading a debate on an online forum, to skip over posts with usage errors, or give them less consideration.

(and yes, i know that improper capitalization may be considered a usage error.  as can extra-sentential parenthesis.  and sentence fragments.  dammit.)

fuznotfuz said, (44 days ago)

There should always be a standardized form of a language in which all speakers of said language can make themselves understood. Having said that, however, I don't think it's possible to resist linguistic change, regardless of whether or not it's desirable.

ilikedginger said, (44 days ago)

I don't care as long as I understand what is being said.

CocktailsMalIntent said, (44 days ago)

You're phrasing makes it sound like changes in a language make it not that language. all languages are constantly changing and trying to prevent that is useless. usually standard or proper forms are decided by the people in power and is used to show how the other groups are wrong/different/bad.

John H. McWhorter in The Power of Babel makes the point that all language is dialect and the only difference is power. the elite decide what is correct and then use it to maintain their power/prove that they fit in with the other elite

le_sacre said, (44 days ago)

@Cocktails:  i'm no expert, but my understanding is that, at least for english, the idea of "correctness" arose in large part with the development of the dictionary, which was an attempt to codify the living language at the time (indeed, our modern usage rules rely to a huge extent on historical examples cited by dictionaries and usage manuals).  this codification is a necessary step in order to make a language universally understood and teachable, but it's also fundamentally impossible to complete since languages are evolving.

would anyone really claim that the dictionary and style manual people occupy much of a position of power in our society?  take a look at mr. nucular in the white house!

le_sacre said, (44 days ago)

@fuz:  it's the *desirability* that intrigues me.  are there valid reasons, apart from curmudgeonly conservatism, to desire a preservation of linguistic rules?

andrewjthomas said, (44 days ago)

@le_sacre: sure, consistency of communication being the most important

without standards, our "common" language would diverge too much to the point where we might not be able to effectively communicate with one another, even though we claim to speak the same language.

Combustible Monkey said, (44 days ago)

@Erinzz: I read that article a week or so ago. And it does seem to support the idea that the language will continue to evolve whether we want it to or not.

As much as it's an international lingua franca, I think it's not only possible but inevitable that new, very different dialects will spring from English and that, in time, they will become languages unto themselves. This will be especially true if and when the US fades as a superpower. And if we ever colonize other planets, forget about it.

CocktailsMalIntent said, (44 days ago)

@le_sac: the people who choose what went into the dictionary and which spellings where correct were based on what was considered "proper" which was decided by the ruling class. and yes, proper english is still considered a sign of class in america. look at how "ebonics" is treated, even though its understandable is seen as bad and wrong. and the way the southern accent is treated is similar.

CocktailsMalIntent said, (44 days ago)

@CM: that's exactly what happened with latin. i wish i could be around to see how it played out.

Combustible Monkey said, (44 days ago)

@CMI: That's what I was getting at, really.

smart- tea said, (44 days ago)

@Carlo: that reminds me of a vampire weekend song.

change is good folks - just keep a good foundation. I mean, our language has taken a many twist and turns just to get to where it is today. I think we must embrace it because like all things - it's evolving.

fuznotfuz said, (44 days ago)

@le_sacre: I think that the only argument for preserving formal standards in a language, apart from sentimental reasons, is that there is value in learning rules, classifications and logical structures. I know that learning the rules of my native tongue made me a better writer and a clearer communicator. Thorough knowledge of English also prepared me to learn other languages. I found that, when I was teaching languages, many students had never had formal training in the rules and structure of English, and thus, they were less able to puzzle together another language's usages. More than once, I had to teach my students English grammar before we could consider the day's lesson, a process that frustrated all concerned.

However, your real question was if I think that English in its current form can be saved? Not in the slightest. Languages undergo natural and artificial evolutions (gradual phonetic changes vs. rapid leaps due to technological change, say), and there's no way to stop or reverse either.

fuznotfuz said, (44 days ago)

@le_sacre: I also mentioned above that there should be some sort of lowest common denominator, a version of the language comprehensible to all.

le_sacre said, (44 days ago)

i don't think preservation is equivalent to "saving" a language.  i'm just wondering out loud whether it's defensible/useful to be support such preservation.

i definitely agree with you on the utility of rules.  it makes me wonder if one small factor in english-speakers' average lack of foreign language competence might be that english has such screwy rules in the first place.

on a side note, i never really understood english grammar until i took latin.  then it all made perfect sense.

fuznotfuz said, (43 days ago)

@le_sacre: I think there's value in trying to hold on to a sort of "standard" English, but I'm also aware that it's a futile gesture.

le_sacre said, (43 days ago)

i've been dwelling on whether i'm a bad person for becoming instantly more attracted to people when they make proper use of a semicolon, nerd out over gerund/participle distinctions, or write, "all of a sudden...".  i feel a more comfortable about it since realizing that it's not about "propriety" so much as just showing that person cares a lot, or thinks a lot, about language.

strangerbox said, (42 days ago)

i think it's important to use language effectively, but that can be done with slang or improper punctuation just as it can with "correct" usage.

Post a Reply

Your Name:

Your Email:

Your Password: