proof negative: oklahoma

Can't be done. It's like pushing water uphill with your bare hands.

i think it's not impossible.  there are so many regions of the U.S., and whole other nations, where people generating discourse at this level would never be elected to public office and would get no respect.  i don't think it's just a propagation of existing heritable population traits--environment plays a huge role in intellectual development, and through the public education system and other public venues we have the opportunity to intervene in their environment.

imagine what the long term result might be if we had taken all the money spent on the iraq war ($600 billion or so) and used it to septuple the education budget.

Let's say I'm an evangelical Christian, and I say in reference to say, NYC or San Francisco:

i don't think it's just a propagation of existing heritable population traits--environment plays a huge role in intellectual development, and through the public education system and other public venues we have the opportunity to intervene in their environment 'to inculcate fundamental Christian values'.

Fact is, this is already being done.

It's a battle I don't think we can win.

No amount of educational funding is going to help, either.

I composed a long entry in response, but for some stupid reason I accidentally closed out that tab so I'll just recommend looking at the Pew Forum's statistical maps on religious affiliation in America at http://religions.pewforum.org/maps and see if you think that religion is going away any time soon in America.

And I don't think throwing good money after bad for education in red states is going to solve anything.

If we want to encourage the growth well-educated folks that have children, high income levels, and output versus consumption, then I reckon we better import some more Hindus. Check out THEIR stats.

Flaming Lips are from Oklahoma, eh?

@Cocktails:  where in the midwest are you native to?  i lived in MN until i was 18, and from my perspective, dakotas and nebraska are totally midwest, while kansas and oklahoma are southern.  i'd also exclude any part of pennsylvania from the midwest.

i do think there's room for optimism (i'm audacious enough to hope, guess).  we've had this recent spate of books celebrating atheism (Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris), and a big poll in 2001 (the American Religious Identification Survey) found that those who identified as not religious doubled from 1990 to 2001.  and fewer americans care about gay marriage in this electoral cycle than did in 2004.  not to mention that the Bush approval rating has finally landed where it ought to have been from the start.  i think that the evangelicals are no longer growing in influence, but atheists are, and non-evangelical christians are realizing more and more the trouble all this nonsense has been causing.

le_sacre: If you were really intelligent or used any sort of critical thinking before you posted little bit of sensationalism you would have done a little research on that comic and found out that most Oklahoman's don't feel that way. In the state's newspaper today, the Oklahoman, this was front page news. The piece basically condemns Rinehart for his over the line campaign tactics and includes quotes from truly respectable Oklahoma officials on the nature of Rinehart's mental health and well known gay bashing nature. Yes there are people in Oklahoma who don't understand homosexuality and who don't want to see or hear anything about it. But that's all over the world. Even in L.A. you have actors and celebrities who have been accused of gay bashing. I don't think it's fair or accurate to call out Oklahoma as being a backwater alley of hicks who need to be schooled more efficiently. It's true the school system here could be improved, I was schooled in Missouri and they are better there. But your topic title is uninformed and small minded.

For the record, and as GTI's only real Okie representative, the majority of Oklahoman's are pretty cool with gay people and most of us think Rinehart is mentally ill. I doubt he will be holding public office much longer.

le_sacre: Actually, the smartest thing to do would be to not try and promote atheism but to try and include religious folks that are interested in working with issues like poverty, development, and the environment because there are a growing number of people, particularly young Christians, that view dealing with those issues as a fundamental part of Christianity. Which is correct, if they are sticking to what is attributed to Jesus.

Insisting on atheism is counterproductive. Some of these people can be co-opted, and it doesn't matter if they believe in the Big Bearded Dude in the Sky for most issues.

@Khaaan:  i'll agree with you to the extent that i shouldn't have given my thread a title suggesting that oklahoma as a whole is proof of anything.

however, even though i did not intend to malign an entire state, i will completely stand by my thesis that there are a lot more things wrong there than in a lot of the "blue" states, and they should be a target of intensified educational programs.  my point with the comic is not that every oklahoman agrees--but that they did in fact elect this guy into office, and clearly there are a large segments of the population there that support those ideas.  however much the comic is shocking in oklahoma, i think it would be completely inconceivable in any non-bible-belt state.  and objectively speaking, oklahoma does rank right up there in terms of numbers of evangelical christians, political conservatives, and high school dropouts--these factors are related.  my feeling is that when the endogenous environment consists to such an extent of these influences, some outside intervention is called for to provide a leg up to the kids growing up there.

i would never suggest that it's the job of the state to encourage atheism any more than any other religion, which would be (and is, rampantly) blatantly unconstitutional.  however, i do think it's vital for the state, through educational programs, to foster critical thinking and problem-solving skills in kids, and these will naturally lead to reductions in both religiosity and political conservatism.  while i personally feel that organized religion is antithetical to learning these skills, i would never support any government suppression of it.

i do think, though, that governments could provide some secular alternatives to the churchs that could be wonderful for providing similar social and altruistic/community-building outlets minus the dogma.

by the way, Khaaan, i had in fact already read the story in the oklahoman, which does not cite any public opinion about Rinehart (other than the general claim that his tenure has been "controversial," and his own claim that his constituents will enjoy the comic), and only quoted Rinehart and the specific figures he attacked in the publication.  i also did try to find out a few more things about him such as by what margin he was elected in 2004, but the info was not readily findable.

It's not even individual states, it's more rural versus urban if you look at electoral maps.

There are rednecks in Massachusetts out in the countryside, and there are illiterate yahoos aplenty here in Cambridge.