HEY INNERNET, SERIOUS QUESTION: Do you feel that because women have become more independent both financially and emotionally, and because so many modern women have bought into the attitude of "having sex like a man", that this has made men to feel as though acting like a big vagina is justified?

No

I mean, think about it. So many straight guys run around embracing and even partaking in female-centric activities -- metrosexuals, anyone? Men are running around wearing tight girl jeans and eyeliner and getting their hair done at premium salons, but this attitude has gone beyond fashion and skincare and has changed the way men ACT, even the men who don't particularly care for girl jeans and eyeliner.

If you mean the cross section of men who are absolutely terrified of female sexuality and kind of pine for the "close your eyes and think of england" days, then yes, yes it has.

Oh, never mind, i misinterpreted what you meant. I think the blurring of gender roles has allowed men to admit that they have emotions, and thank christ for that.

Cocktails -- wait what? No, I'm just talking about how lately, many MANY of my girlfriends and I have noticed that the men we're dating are acting more and more like women and want to be attached and blahblahblah, and we (to a certain extent) just want to have fun.

@sven: it's all part of our plan to get more video game time.

girls have been wanting to just have fun since the 80's

@Namrok: That's not what she meant either--emotional sharing or whatever the fuck is most certainly a two way street, but what I think Cleez meant is that men are now dominating the relationship talk because they want their emotional needs met, too, and that this is a departure from the ways of old, and can be really jarring for a chick who just wants to go play video games.

If it is becoming more prolific, I think it is more that men are less ashamed of they're effeminate tendencies.

Or maybe some guys think it'll get them laid?

They're all still pussies, though.

@twigby: yes, this.

their*

Anyone who reads or pays attention to Cosmo deserves a douchebag.

I'm with Cleez. That is, I don't want to talk about my feelings. You talk about yours if you want, but it's going to get old after a while.

I don't want a boyfriend who cries.

If a guy dumps me, I don't get all fucking emotional about it and whine and cry for ages and beg for him to come back and shit. I move the fuck on.

If I dump a guy, I would appreciate the same courtesy. Don't send me 8,000 texts asking me if we can talk. It's over, bro. Move the fuck on.

I think your views on this depend a lot on how you were raised. In my family, my dad was always the one more in touch with his emotions and feelings. My mom has been more of the "bread-winner" over the past decade or so. From my perspective, the women I grew up around have always been less inclined to share their feelings and instead be the ones to provide and get shit done.

Hm. My family life was stressful. My dad made more money (and still does) but my mom was the one who got him through college and his masters by doing nearly all of the work for him, in addition to her own.

All I'm gonna say is that I've cried once in the past 5 years. And that was when my dad died.

And even showing THAT much emotion was too much for the women in my life.

Which just about said it all so far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps I've just had bad experiences, I don't know.

[this is all hypothetical, btw. I've pretty much given up on dating for the next while, but these are a lot of experiences I've had in the past and that many of my dating friends have also experienced]

anyhow, i have long felt that men are "lost," in general.

That's the other kicker.

You have no idea how many times I've had the "Why are you so standoffish?" conversation. I go over things, and women always say "Well those are just bitches". And occasionally one of these women I'll date, and something will come up, like 80 hour work weeks, deaths in the family, being too poor to eat, etc. And no sooner does a crack in the armor of unflinching masculinity appear than they are out the door.

And I'm sure it swings both ways. I'm sure men can suck just as much as women in this regard.

But I don't try to date men. So I bitch about women.

toy -- you spend more money on your hair than i do. don't go talkin' bout pussies.

It's a codependency thing. It used to be, you found a woman, you kept her. It was a reliable, constant thing. Now that divorce is so common, men as a group have lost what was a constant for previous generations. Everyone dates/has relationships for fun now. Chivalry is dead because it's not appreciated anymore, and is seen as a sign of weakness.

Men think that by caving and leaping to the end quickly, it shows dedication and resolve. And it's honestly just desperation. It's men as a culture have broken up with marriage because it's no longer realiable, and now we're trying to rebound using any tactic we can.

While this generation's women didn't ask for it, growing up and watching TV, I was constantly bombarded by women who wanted more "sensitive, caring men." So well... you all are reaping what your parents have sewn.

PT -- I agree with the last bit a lot. I was just thinking about that, actually. This middle generation between our parents [well, i guess my parents since my 'rents are OLD] and ourselves has screwed it up for everyone. They were the women asking for more sensitive men and dragging their husbands to couples therapy so they can learn to communicate and be more open with eachother, but they're also the ones who CREATED the kind of women we are today.

Or, you know, maybe the old stereotypes were inaccurate? There have probably always been a lot of men who were interested in emotional commitment etc., and also a lot of men who weren't, and a lot of women in both groups.

It's just that one type of men and one type of women got so much publicity for a long time that now it seems shocking when things aren't necessarily like that. But most likely, things were NEVER like that in real life, not privately.

I mean, I realize I'm only one guy, and kind of an odd one at that. But I don't think I could impersonate the macho caricatures you're describing, no matter WHAT era it was. Now, granted, I can believe that many people are better at impersonating things than I am -- I am really bad at impersonating things. And I can believe that maybe there was more pressure to cover up one's opinions in previous generations. But I can't believe men just didn't have those opinions, and when it comes right down to it, I can't believe a lot of men kept up these facades in private. I mean, romantic relationships are pretty serious business -- it is no time to be guided by peer pressure, you know?

But here's what I don't get: one of your examples went as follows.

"If a guy dumps me, I don't get all fucking emotional about it and whine and cry for ages and beg for him to come back and shit. I move the fuck on.

If I dump a guy, I would appreciate the same courtesy. Don't send me 8,000 texts asking me if we can talk. It's over, bro. Move the fuck on."

I mean, in this situation, either you didn't explain things adequately to him in the first place, or this is a macho aggressive move. I mean, if you didn't at least resolve the question of how exactly you'd be dealing with the guy in the future -- questions of etiquette, what happens if you run into each other, that sort of thing -- he has every right to be upset with you. But if you arranged some kind of closure in the first place, he's just disregarding your wishes at that point. Total macho-jerk move there.

(so.. much.. i.. want.. to.. say..)

Nope.

Do you and your friends have similar tastes in men? Where do you find them?

There have always been whiny, clingy guys throughout..well, time. They tend to exist in certain groups, locations and cliques and I think that the whiny clingy, guys of today are drawn to the internet(as well as other places like bookstores and coffee houses and indie shows etc.) Which isn't to say that all of the guys here(there) are pussies, there's just a largely higher concentration of them when compared to other cliques, niches, locations and venues.

Maybe you and your friends' "type" are just a part of the same clingy subset of men that have always existed and you are just drawn to the places they frequent and largely interact with them.

The guys you (seem to) want definitely do exist out there.

Well, then, maybe this is just a case of a guy who isn't being honest with himself. I mean, speaking as someone who knows he's inherently clingy, and whose only real interest in a relationship is constant companionship (well, not constant constant, but you know... I wouldn't want to be around someone 24 hours a day, but I'd like to have the option of something approaching that), I wouldn't even get into dating anyone who was against that idea.

But again, if you're describing a guy who really feels that way, but agrees to something which he's told has no potential to become that kind of relationship, you're describing a guy who's not being honest with himself. And the specific way he's not being honest with himself is that he's telling himself he's okay with emotional distance and no commitment -- which is to say, he's adopting a macho attitude which is not natural to him, and it's breaking down. And when it breaks down, and destroys the relationship, he feels he can unilaterally dictate a change in terms, which (again) is a self-centered, macho attitude.

So really your problem isn't with guys who aren't all distant and macho, your problem is with guys who try to adopt distant and macho behavior. Which I'm sure was even more prevalent in the '50s and whatnot, when the pressure to display that kind of behavior was even higher. Q.E.D.

Maybe this is overly independent (?) of me, but I really like the idea that the person I'm with has their own life, friends, and shit going on--as much as I like to be a big part of that, it's good to know that you don't have to hang out with each other every night, that the other person isn't hanging on your ever utterance and foreseeable future. Go do something else for a while, dude.

Yeah, that's another thing. I don't like sharing my friends. That sounds mean, but it's totally true. When I'm dating someone, I don't dislike hanging out with his friends or my friends or whatever, but I don't want my boyfriend to be best friends with my friends. STOP SAYING THE WORD FRIENDS, CELISSE.

I'm casual friends with some of my friends' boyfriends, and I really LOVE some of them and would like to be better friends with them, but for the sake of keeping things un-awkward, I am hesitant.

Also, if I'm dating a guy and I pull the plug, I don't want him hanging around my friends! I want him GONE.

I had ONE relationship where his friends became mine and vice versa, and it was AWFUL once we broke up. We not only broke up, I also essentially broke up with his friends (some of whom I LOVEDDDDD), AND my friends. I had to start from scratch. It sucked.

Actually, I think my point was something else, but that doesn't invalidate my point. I don't know; technically speaking, I haven't had enough sleep to have a point.

Part of the problem is that most women won't tell you how they're feeling until they're fed up with how you're acting.

If they don't want to talk all the time or see you, they won't tell you that. They expect you to know that already.

So it might not be that the guy is clingy, but rather that he's trying really hard to have sex with you, and you are giving him all the wrong signals. The guy doesn't realize he's doing anything wrong until you tell him to leave you alone.

i think it is a matter of honest communication. be upfront about who you are and how you relate, and either it will work for the other person or it won't. eventually you find someone who matches you.

i'm good at that.

i'm going to have to ask around on that one. i doubt people would describe me as sweet.

oh shush up, sweety.

@toy: that's not entirely true.

generally speaking, the way you dress reflects the way you wish to portray yourself to the outside world.

@pepper: i think hes responding to the crack about him using hair products.

@CT: do you really think that the way you present yourself to the world doesn't reflect your personality?

@pepper: but dont you think that tells you about the person? i mean, that seems to be its own sort of representation.

that depends on whether their appearance is that of a simpering pussy

ahhaha. I agree with Celisse on all accounts.

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

@toy: It'd make more sense if you called her a spinster.

hahahahahahahshahahsfscshsgsgngnn

I think a girl haircut and clothes, whining about not being able to get dates and then when people offer help being like "NO! Not it! You're wrong!". You know, whining and then when someone offers logical advice, refusing it. Total chick thing to do.

Only ovaries do that.

Someone needs a tampon.

Ok I'm going to sleep for real now bye innernet

The pussification of the American Male has been underway for decades, and you only have your soft, fruity selves to blame for the results.

It's a Carlin-ism.